Katie Murray, two years on

Katie Murray, two years on | 25x25

As a CFO you might have been on the succession pipeline. What was the process behind Paul Thwaite’s appointment?

We understand that something like 11% of group CEOs were the CFO, and we've seen, even in the last couple of weeks in the UK, quite a move up of CFOs into that CEO space. But it wasn't something that I wanted to do. Paul was always on the succession to take over in the event of a need for a quick change. I was always really supportive of that. He was the horse that I would back if I was having to pick one, and then he went through a process to then actually get the job permanently. So from my from my side, I wouldn't see that as the CFO didn't get it. For me personally, it wasn't something I was interested in if it were to come around again It's something that I would be very warmly considered for if it was something that I wanted to do. So I do still see it as a very strong route through and I would really see as a strong route, particularly for those CFOs, who are CFOs now, but who've also been in the business as well, so that they've managed the P&L from the strategic side as well as from the number side.

Are Fund Managers taking sufficient interest in succession planning or gender balance?

So they're definitely very interested in succession planning. Particularly in our situation where we've gone through two big events, so a change of a CEO, change of the chairman. Our investors have been very involved in in those kind of process, and they've asked questions. And they sought to understand how we do what we've done, what's the depth of talent that's behind there. So I do think on succession planning in its widest sense, it's definitely there.

I think the bit that I would if I was marking their end of term report card on gender balance, I think I would probably put them in a little bit of could do better, As a CFO, I spend a huge amount of time out with fund managers and with investors, and it really is a population that is still predominantly male to a very large extent, I go to a number of different investment houses, and there won't be a single woman in the room. And often, if there is, she'll be the ESG specialist. So I would, I would probably put on that that gender piece of their own businesses a little bit of that could do better. And of course, then that means the challenge that they're giving to us, as the companies they invest in, on the gender piece could probably be a little bit stronger.

Are the Regulators supportive?

If I look at the Bank of England, I would say that they've actually been at quite a forefront of a lot of the diversity that they did, which all kind of started under Mark Carney to make sure they have real balance in their boards, from the very top level of the MPC [Monetary Policy Committee] down through their deputy governors and things like that. So I think they themselves are people that you can look at with real positivity. Actually, these are really technical roles, but you were [Bank of England] able to do it. So there is no place for excuses. It's hard.

And then succession planning is a big conversation that they'll have with every financial institution at the moment. “Where are you on your succession planning? What are you doing? How do we know they've got the right kind of talent coming through on that?” So I do think they do well on it, and I think some of that's done through regulation and reporting, and the other is done through, actually, I think trying to hold the standard up very well internally.

NatWest was one of the founding members of 25x25. In the last three years what has been accomplished together?

We're very proud we are one of your diamond members, and we worked really hard with you to develop the data analytics tool so that we can have that interactive framework of what's actually happening, and that self-assessment tool of where I am with other 25x25 members is something that helps us to navigate our own development stories and our own leadership training that we do.

One of the things that I'm most excited about, and this is something that Jen Tippin, our Group COO has been really involved in, which is, how do we adapt that so that we can then use it to support a broader audience of smaller companies. And that's really important for the UK economy, because what we know is that so much of our actual businesses and our GDP are the smaller and mid-market companies. So how they're going on that development is something that we'll be very excited about.

I'm personally involved a number of great conversations that we've had with different members over time, just as how we can keep this agenda very much at the forethought of thinking. So overall, I would say that we're pleased with how we've moved, and we've worked with you, and we want to continue to make sure that we make it a success and ultimately realise the ambitions that we all have.

What message do you have for future members of 25x25

For companies that aren't involved [in 25x25], this is a really good institution. We're really making real change and use us to help develop your gender narrative as well, and your pathways and your leadership skills, because it's something that, I think, particularly with the tool, that you can get real benefit from the learning that many of us, have already gone through. So I'd really encourage the chairs of those FTSE 100 companies to really make sure that they are participating as well.

How do the recent leadership changes at NatWest relate to the 25x25 Framework?

Sure, absolutely. Big year of change Paul [Thwaite] was appointed as CEO in July last year. And then one of the things that he did quite early on in his time was to actually look at the Exco and say, how can we reframe this Exco a little bit to make it a bit smaller, have the business leads there as the real kind of focus? And then he also made a change in the CEO of the Private Bank in terms of Coutts.

So what's happened as a result? For me personally, we've got a great kind of female fellowship on the Exco with me. There's myself, as the group CFO. We then have Jen Tippin, who was promoted up to be the Group COO. we also have Solange [Chamberlain], who is, she wouldn't thank me for saying this, younger talent. She's come on as the Head of Strategy as well, and that's a promotion from where she was as the COO within the C&I [Commercial & Institutional] business. And then what I really like, and I think it's really important, for what we do within 25x25 is Emma Crystal has joined, and Emma is the CEO for our Wealth Business, which is predominantly Coutts, but with some other pieces attached to that as well. And then for me, that's the whole thing about succession. Because we all know that the path to Group CEO, a huge number of people come through from the divisional CEO space, so it's great to have a female representation at that level as well. So I think overall, really very positive in terms of what we're trying to achieve in 25x25.